There is a discussion going on among my friends and I wanted to share it here….

Ξ April 28th, 2008 | → 2 Comments | ∇ Cultural Architect Stuff, family, friends |

 

I have spoke on this before but here are a few quotes I wanted to share from a few of them and in the next post I will give a little more about the way I see it in an United Methodist Church perspective:

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It all started with this post from Chris:

“My truck is paid off but the gas prices are killing me. I don’t drive that much and its over $300 per month, not including my wife’s car. So what does this project to as a national economy? Recession seems inevitable, will it go way beyond that? A nation already ruled by fear and over-spending with no margins by individuals and the government, what will be the consequences?

How will this impact churches and mortgages and credit lines that can’t be fed? As builders pass on who are the committed givers what is left? 1/2 of boomers are there to give and the other 1/2 are driven past their financial margins with consumerism and can’t help. Gen X and Millenials have very little value in long term comittments, are all about instant gratification and consumerism is their native language. Commonly this group of up and comers are living on 125-140% of their income taking on exponential debt per year. What will be the result of these decisions having no margins when the shoe drops?

Will American churches go the way of their European counterparts? Becoming really funky coffee houses, restaraunts, art galleries and dance clubs. Just things I wonder about.”

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and this is a second round from Chris in this post:

“But what I want to re-iterate is that everything needs to be submitted before God. Our expectations of what a comfortable American living has to be submitted. Our expectations of where we hold community meetings has to be submitted. Our assumptions of what we envision our role in the church being has to be submitted. Our financial margins and use of physical resources has to be submitted. Our sense of comfort and security has to be submitted. Where God calls, God provides and that will come at least in the form of daily bread. If we claim to follow Christ, that has to be enough for us. We have to be very careful to guard against making “professional” what is a spiritual role.

It is the sense of entitlement that I am speaking against when it comes to vocational roles in ministry. I am not against the idea of being paid, I am against the assumption that its the way it always has been and always will be. God does not owe us anything! Not a job, not a title of honor, not an air-conditioned office nor full time hours a week to be a spiritual leader. Now his provision may emody all of that for you, but we have to be okay if it doesn’t. Truly, his grace needs to be sufficient for us and its not our place to demand more. Don’t run from suffering, embrace it. Let it change you. Let it bring you to deeper exeperiences of God’s hand on your life. Sweating blood on your night of Gaethsamane crying out to God to take care of your family is what dependence on Him looks like sometimes. If he desires to move in a different mode of paradigm, in submission, we have to be ready to go with him because there is no one else who holds the words of life.

So in this discussion I want to say that we as the Church need to be ready and willing to do whatever it takes to be the people of God on earth and embody his mission here.”

Chris Marshall

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Then Aaron chimes in on his response post:

“What if ministry was defined as beginning and ending with the relationships that already exist in our lives?  Of course, we would begin new relationships – some intentionally so – but they are not a means to an end.  We take on the role of friend as opposed to director, parent or mentor as opposed to expert, brother or sister as opposed to business partner.

Such a ministry would necessitate a different understanding of finances.  Since the intent is not to build a mechanism by which to get Jesus (or get people to Jesus) or a commercial by which to promote Jesus, then we are freed to use our funds for community growth and development.  By which, I mean, of course – “Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven”.  The growth and development of the community of faith blessing and serving the world is an inherently relational project.  However that community of faith is by its very nature bound by the laws of relationship (i.e. knowing and being know).  The result being that the need for managers and administrators for that community is decreased.”

Aaron Klinefelter 

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Jason then chimes in on his response post:

“It’s true. We’ve got to start thinking long term about some of this. The trends do not seem to say that we can fend this off by building bigger, regional churches. Though there is limited success there, I don’t see it being a long term fix to a growing problem. I’ve said this before, but I really don’t think the experts have many answers for us. They have too much invested in the Christendom machine. So, it’s going to be up to the rank and file folks to come up with the solutions.

For example, I’ve just been checking out a few video clips of the stuff Alan and Allelon are talking about on their site. It’s good stuff. But while it seems to be covering the theological shifts necessary we’re still in serious need of how to do the practical stuff. All the while, we watch pastors that have seen the necessary shifts, follow those shifts and sink further into debt and depression trying to figure this out all alone… not a good place to be when you’re trying to reinvigorate the Body of Christ.

Both planters and pastors have got to do self-image re-alignment, learn other skills/trades, learn how to be entrepreneurs, become community organizers, etc. No longer can we depend upon our previous economic paradigms within the Church…”

Jason 

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And Alan chimes in with a Roman Catholic response post (but the part I put here is the end and applies to everyone):

“Things seem to be moving in a direction that might cause us all to have to rethink what we spend, what we build, how we pay our staff, etc. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, whatever – things will change and we will all have to face it sooner or later. This all makes me remember a story an old Priest told me about something a friend said to him who had spent a lot of time in Rome, that the best thing that could happen to the Catholic Church is for an oppressive government to take over and strip it of all it’s wealth, tear the external institution down and push it back into the catacombs. OK, the catacombs part was my creative addition, but you get my point. And it’s not only the Catholic Church but much of the rest of the whole Church – let us all lose the ability to own buildings, to pay our leaders or our tax exemptions. Bring it! Where would our focus be then? Maybe on the Kingdom of God, something novel like that. It’s time for some Body of Christ creativity. Maybe we should start practicing now – maybe. Lord have mercy.”

 Alan Creech

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And here a guy named Mark gives a great response post:

“The down side to this is that the mainstream church has all of its vast resources tied up in maintaining the status quo (even if they are innovating their practices, they are largely doing so in a way that reinforces the dominant Christendom paradigm). As a result, these subversive pioneers are doing a LOT with very little. And they are doing it in a way that escapes the notice of the mainstream. Why? Because the mainstream lacks the lens to notice what is happening and why these pioneers are doing a vital job.

I know this sounds dramatic. Because it is. I’d like to think I am one of these pioneers. I have, in the same week, been told by one mainstream Christian that “I have little to show for myself” and been told by one supportive friend in Philadelphia that “it is amazing I am able to accomplish so much.” I share this to highlight that people see what they are looking for. The mainstream church is looking for practitioners who can maintain the status quo. These starving ecclesial artists are looking for ways of being faithful in the future.

Our task isn’t to keep Christianity going as usual. Instead, we need to find ways of equipping and enpowering the next generation to do ministry in a way that is sustainable, even if we are currently struggling with doing sustainable ministry.”

Mark Van Steenwky 

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And even Kevin chimed in here in this post:

“There are strategic reasons why I don’t work full time in paid ministry: Namely I am around “normal” (aka non-christians) all day every day. I have a reason to be involved in many peoples lives and am available to them and I know them not as a professional minister but as a friend and co-worker. This also gives me multiple entry points into the life of my city. I am known by several on city council and by the mayor as well as the fire department (they do my permits for the shop) and the police department (I fix many of their cars).

- Others are empowered to serve and don’t overly depend on me. Because I have a full time job in the “real world” (I know that is faulty but it is where most people are and we’re trying to contextualize right?) people naturally understand that I am not available to do every wedding, counseling session, or ministry idea that they want me to do for them… it creates a high ownership environment where everyone has jobs and everyone contributes as they can to the mission in the neighborhood.

- It ain’t perfect, neat and clean… I remember a conversation I had with Todd Hunter, Mark Palmer, and Jason Evans where Todd said to us that we would likely have to “cobble something together from a job, support raising, part time staff etc… This is a transitional time and transitions aren’t tidy.” When it comes to day to day realities we all know that there is not a perfect answer or one size fits all. We have to just put the pieces together as they come to us and move toward ideals over time.

- There are prophetic reasons to not get paid by a church namely you can fully speak your mind/heart/word of the Lord and not have in the back of your mind “what will happen if I offend a big giver?” or “I can’t afford to lose my benefits and retirement so I better watch my step in this situation.”

Kevin Rains 

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And i will post concerning this in a United Methodist context in the next post. it seems to be very clear that God is working on the hearts and lives of several people at the same time!!! Dang yo!